Religous Americans: My faith isn't the only way

Yes, let all of us listen to the wizened words and amazing humor of Mike755 who is so wise as to be the singular font of all knowledge of faith and truth. Since, according to Mike there is no God......should we ask just how he came by this revelation or just bow down to his singular wisdom that establishes that 5 billion other human beings, living now, are less intelligent that Mike. Thank you Mike755, for lifting the world's minions out of the darkness of their collective ignorance. Think of it......we can believe in Mike755......or we can believe in Jesus Christ........Oh, what to do, what to do? Who is Mike755 that we should be cognizant of The Gospel According To Mike755.

I just registered on Newsvine. I simply had to ask a question. Who the heck is Wayne111? He and millions like him seem to be insane.

The facts, as most scientists seem to be saying, are, "we have no good idea how the Big Bang was created".

I was just looking at a web page last night that listed perhaps 20 to 30 religions the Western world would recognize. Then there are the, perhaps, thousands of tribal and other religions the rest of the world truly believe. All these folks must believe GOD has a odd sense of humor if only one of those religions is the right and only way.

Then you have religious texts that believe war is the way to go. You have other texts that believe in virgins having babies - rather than have sympathy for them as the rape victim, or condemn them as the slut they really are. You have others that claim they are the chosen ones. Even more loony are those that claim being dead is better than being alive. I could go on and on.

It should be sufficient to say that religious activity has been a wonderful collection point for meeting the needs of many, where our capitalistic system has failed to provide. It has also provided a steady job for many that enjoy condemning others under the guise of presenting their particular religion as the only, or best, way.

When we mix too much religion into our political system we do not get very far as a country. Look at what has happened over the last 8 years. We've degraded science to the point that we are falling behind as a nation. I simply can not fathom how the life of a few cells is more important than the life of babies, children and adults. It simply makes no sense that those are the choices politicians made.

When my mother recently died the reverend basically said my mother was better off dead rather than living to be 200 years old in good health. He said it was better because she is with her Lord.

The reality is that the Earth will be eaten by the Sun and whatever the ants and other bugs haven't already digested, the rest will be vaporized.

Even Houdini hasn't bothered getting word back to us about where they keep all those souls the religions folks keep talking about. Oh yeah. I forgot. That's how they make their money! But why to so many people foolishly follow?

So, then, magnets, if your pluralistic approach is correct, then why is wayne111 insane because he questions the atheism of mike755? How is wayne's post more dogmatic than mike's, especially when your own atheistic beliefs sound as dogmatic as mike's and disrespectful to your mother's faith? I will never fathom how those who assert emphatically that there is no god because they don't agree with any religious expression they've seen, claim condescending moral, rational and all other kinds of superiority over those who claim emphatically that they do believe in god. You base your reality on only what you can extrapolate from theories that scientists postulate, based on observations, limited to collective known experience. Many religious people base their reality on more than just scientific theories and their own personal experiences that you've never had.

SB-269069,

Where did I say there is no GOD? I haven't a clue why anything exists. I've got a pretty good guess why books exist - so people can make money! Pretty much no other reason.

There is no physical answer I can fathom that tells us why the universe exists. What is so complex about that fact?

My favorite thought is that our universe is but one thought in GOD's mind? Why would you or anyone else want to think less of GOD than that?

Do you sell books or make money out of religion in some other way?

You didn't "say" there was no god; you called wayne "insane" (for his beliefs that there WAS, and criticism of the atheistic dogmatism in mike755's post). On what grounds? Your beliefs could only be inferred to be in agreement with mike755's, based on calling wayne111 "insane" for his critque of mike755. The name-calling was uncalled for, and now you're trying to play "devil's advocate," pardon the pun. I don't think you can infer anything about my beliefs from my post to you, let alone how belittling they are of your god concept or not ("think any less of God than that"). And your anti-bibliophilism is curious indeed.

Mike755:
You are correct god is Santa Clause for adults.
There are no creditable evidence to support claims that he exists; rather mere speculations at best.

Wayne111 is a perfect example of someone who BLINDLY follows what his/her religion tells them and is incapable of questioning their religion.

The reason why I do not believe in god is due to LACK of evidence. Using the bible as evidence for gods existence amounts to circular reasoning

SB-269069,

By not answering my question, I think it is very obvious.

You make money on religion in some way.

No use having you in on this conversation.

Anyone here without the profit motive have anything to say?

It appears that our friend Wayne111 is not familiar with the logical fallacy of argument from popularity. In his defense, that's pretty typical of the religious.

The article is very misleading. As someone mentioned before a study of only that many people can be made to say whatever you want based on who the questions were asked to and how they were worded. Having said that I am a baptised believer in God and Jesus Christ. I cannot look at other people and say how they are worshipping is wrong , faith/religion is a way of life not a title or label. Christians , Jews , Muslims all worshipping the same God but in different ways , how can I say that the church up the street is doing it "right or wrong?" To say that would be to imply I understand God in a way that others dont. Do i think other religions are going to hell , I have no idea what is going to happen. The bible tells me not to judge others. By judging others I only make myself out to be a hypocrit. There are just as many holes in "the big bang" "abiogenesis" "evolution" and other theories as there are in religion. People choose to live the way they wish , that was the price for sin. I am just as much a sinner as the next person , I cannot tell someone the way I am living is right nor can I tell them the way they are living is not right. I have come to grips with my errors and everyday I learn and grow in God. The artcle would lead you to believe that because I am not hardcore in the way I look at other religions or even science for that matter that I dont believe in my own faith or something silly. When in reality I have grown more in my faith because I understand the message that the only person you can change is the one in the mirror. That you should love your fellow man because in him we see our own faults. There are people who will get angry and jump up and down arguing God does/doesnt exist and fight till they are red in the face. There are people who will fight how they are practicing their faith is not the "right" way. Mankind has done many evil things in the "name" of religion/s. None of them were ok , but because someone did something evil before should all of those who have faith be cast in the same light? There have been just as many evil things done in the name of science. For me , my faith , my way of life , I absolutely believe in God and Jesus so I must look at myself first.

magnets, what question? Did you ask a question that wasn't begginbg the question? Your post seemed quite rhetorical and self-congratulatory to me. What is very obvious? I'm not religious for financial gain. How do I profit finanically from being religious? Missionaries face tremendous hardships that offerings taken up go to support their lives; the rest goes to the maintenance of the building so that we can assemble and congregate together, besides paying the ministers for their time (they have outside jobs). Where in that do you see a profit motive in me? And what is your thing with books? Further, how do you tell me that I should stay off the board (no need to be in the conversation) because I don't align with your thinking? I don't recall seeing any of the other posters basicly telling another poster to stfu, christian or otherwise, simply because they didn't agree. And you consider Christians intolerant bigots? You don't even fit the profile of the survey in the article, but you have determined that I'm not fit to post. How did you become the self-appointed arbitor of the litmus? Why can't you see that many of you atheists and agnostics on this board come to dominate it, proselytize as much as any religionist, supress the thoughts of theists? Some of you have even suggested scenarios where there would be no more Christians. I can only imagine the outrage if Christians wished all non-Christians didn't live. If you're not calling it a faith system (lack of faith in something is not faith that it is not), you could have fooled me, the way you so staunchly and passionately (rudely) put forth your ideas, always putting down whoever doesn't agree. Your words come off as any zealot's would. You are blind to your own bigotry. For starters, you've already passed a judgment on me (materialist) that you cannot support, in that you don't know me. And if I can't "own up to your assessment of me," then I should just shut up and be quiet. I see. thenm you go to every other poster that you respond to, with this same conflation of all things religious into marketeering. Seth351, and I'm finding attitudes that you display pretty "typical" of the non-religious, the very condescension that you accuse us of. The hypocrisy here is astounding. Those of you who have no faith, tell me, why did you come to post? What interested you about the article? I'll bet you were looking to see how many religious people logged on, just so that you could take that opportunity to try and "educate" them. How nice of you and Jess81, Larry68, Terraphoenix, Champoo and Iownyou1992 et. al., who seemed to have come to make this thread an atheist vs. theist debate board. And if we don't bite, then off with you, as magnets has suggested to me. How rude.

Mike755 has the answer! Actually, I'd take his word over Jesus Christ's any day. After all, Mike755 is alive, and Jesus died around 2000 years ago, and hasn't been heard from since. There are those who claim to talk for him, while asking for your money at the same time. No thank you.

I think this Santa Claus analogy is pretty clever:

1. He's keeping a list and checking it twice.

2. He's going to find out who's naughty and nice.

3. Present for the good boys and girls, and a lump of coal for the bad ones.

I wonder how many of us would still believe in Santa Claus if we'd never found the presents hidden in the closet. Actually, in this case it would be easier to believe in Santa Clause than in an eternity in heaven, since the latter is only a promise that you get to enjoy after you die. How convenient!

Actually, I think it makes sense to be scared of eternal life. It is appealing to us, since our lives are so short, that we only get to know a few people on this earth, visit a few places, and learn a few things. If we had more time...

The problem with eternity is that it is so long. With eternity I could spend a trillion years with each person who ever lived, getting to know them VERY well. I could spend another trillion years studying each atom in the universe. In fact I could spend a trillion years on each separate possible combination of atoms in the universe. If a trillion is long enough, make it a googol years (1 followed by 100 zeros), or any number you consider sufficiently large. But here is the catch: after all that time, eternity hasn't even started. It will still stretch out before you endlessly. Very scary.

Rob, That is how all Polls/Surveys are done. They take a cross section of people and use that number which actually is a fair way to do it.

Uncle Rob never took Statistics.

35,000 is just short of 1 / 10,000 (considering the population of the US is just over 300 mil.). Are you sure 1 in 10,000 is a fair representation?

A survey of 35,000, if randomly selected, is a very lare sample. You can draw pretty firm conclusions from this. Actually, a sample of 1000 is adequate for most purposes.

Some Christians hold strongly to Jesus' words as described in John 14:6: "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." Others emphasize the wideness of God's grace.

Anyone who does not believe that wholeheartedly is not a Christian and their denomination should take the word Christian out. It's Christ-like people and it is not to be compromised. Especially God's word, the Bible.

and that's why people like me consider your faith to be cultish.

Leo, you are so right. Jesus never taught his followers to be tolerant of false religions. In fact, he taught just the opposite. A Christian must stand firm in his belief of the teachings of Christ. They are not to compromise just because it is politically correct to do so. Being "neither hot nor cold" is just a detestable to God as are the sins of the sinners. Tolerating other beliefs are the reason Jesus told the Scribes and Pharisees, "Woe unto you, because you teach the teachings of your fathers." In other words, they were teaching exactly what they had been taught rather than reading the Scriptures for themselves and discerning what the Scriptures actually taught. Jesus taught that there is but one Truth, not several truths. His teachings are the ONLY way to God. Thanks for enlightening so many people. It is time people wake up and realize that they have to read the Scriptures for themselves and pray that they might see with the "eye" of understanding.

Ouch... I'll try not to take offense. I live in the Pacific Northwest and I do believe Jesus is the son of God and the only true way to our Father in heaven. I do also believe that those who have faith in anything or anyone else are going to be sorely disappointed when they are separated from God at the end of their life. I don't know what the stats are for the "Bible Belt", but I lived in Florida not long ago and it was much the same as it is here. As several have already commented, there will be many false Gods and false prophets, and many will fall away or compromise their own faith. It's happening everywhere and, unfortunately, their data is probably fairly accurate.

Isn't it wonderful, WalkinWithJesus, that you are so eager to say that people like the Jews, who are members of the "father faith" to yours, are inferior to you? That's why people like me equate your belief system with that of the cults, which say "ours is the only true way to believe," and you're proving it right now.

Please tell me where it says that it is unacceptable to believe in what Jesus said. Something like 80-85% of the people in the country are Christians. Christians rule the country. Christians are free to practice their religion and there are churches on every corner. Yet you all make it sound as though you're the ones who are persecuted. Please -- believe whatever you want, practice your self-righteous brand of Christianity, but stop trying to hammer everyone else on the head with your beliefs, and stop acting like poor victims who aren't allowed to believe in God.

Thank yo so much for your comments. I echo them with you. It is tragic and sad Stephen102806, to see so many people deceived by satans lies. It is my prayer that people will wake up and realize that there is but one way to heaven, through our precious Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. And again, you are absolutely correct, if man could get to heaven on his own merits, or through someone else, then Christ did die in vain. Praise God that the one way to heaven, God has given us the answer, that being Christ Jesus.

Crispy...without even realizing it, you've made most everyone's point up until now. 80-85% of Americans aren't Christian, at least not in the biblical sense of the word. 80-85% of Americans THINK they're Christian. If America is the cess pool it is today with 80% of its population Christian, I'd hate to see the state of society if we were a more "enlightened." I'm sure 80% of Americans also believe they're going to heaven and, a substantial percentage of them probably believe they are "good people." The bible says none of us are "good" in that we can never be "good" enough to deserve to go to heaven. I agree with the guy above, this is just another sign we're living in the end times. Anyone notice the weather lately? The explanations for the ridiculous extremes in weather simultaneously not only in this country, but around the world are becoming laughable. We've never seen a time in history where more innocent people are being raped, tortured, killed, etc. and too often we're seeing these atrocities done to children. Oh, and let's not forget Iran's stance on wiping Israel off the face of the earth. Sound familiar to anyone? It's too the point now where it doesn't exactly take a biblical scholar to interpret these signs from Revelations. Ugggh. This report is disappointing, but not surprising in the least.

Crispy daisy, I think what Stephen is saying is that you're shunned as being intolerant, judgemental, closed minded, if you don't go further than just co-existing with other faiths, to actually embracing a more neutral view of biblical Christianity that denies a literal interpretation of key biblical passages. It's not physical persecution that prohibits religious expression, or necessarily verbal even, that prevents making certain claims, but more a cultural criticism of believing exclusive claims by any deity.

Chad- you're right. How silly of me not to realize that those of you who speak for God and judge these things don't consider most people who call themselves Christian to be Christian enough, like you are. Poor, pathetic bastards. They might as well be atheists!

The problem is you're unwilling to accept the fact that other people have their own belief systems, and you're willing to sentence them to fire and brimstone forever. That is cultish, saying that yours is the only way to heaven. I'm sorry, but that's the unvarnished truth.

Stephen, you say,"History, (the Bible is backed historically more than any other writing, be it archeology,manuscripts, or other non religious and religious writings of that time) proves the Bible."

Can you quote some evidence for that statement? Did that information come from a reliable source?

Read "The Bible Unearthed" by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman. These two well-known archaeological scholars describe in detail how archaeological evidence gathered over the last few decades refutes much of the Old Testament. There is no archaeological evidence whatsoever that the Isrealites ever lived in Egypt. There is not one Egyptian text that even mentions the Isrealites. There is no archaeological evidence whatsoever that the Exodus ever took place. A migration that large over many years would have left significant archaeological evidence. There is no evidence that Joshua ever existed or led a large army, and no evidence for any of the large battles in Canaan described in the Bible. There is no archaeological evidence that any King David ever existed, and there was certainly no large Davidic kingdom as described in the Bible.

Furthermore, the city of Nazareth that is claimed to be the childhood home of Jesus in the New Testament did not even exist until 200 years after the death of Jesus.

I will go a little deeper for this thread but i do not like doing so as the message was ment to be simple and not to be complicated.
The Lord clearly sates he does not need sacrifice "the earth and its fullness are mine"
so there for sacrifice is for our benefit and understanding,not the Lords .He also so says "You do not know me although I know you, My ways are high above you"
Jesus Christ was and is the everlasting sacrifice of which Lord new we could associate with being a man and knowing how hard it is to push sin away"He seemed like he sweat-ed blood as he prayed"The Jews used lambs but there is a personal unity when it was a human not a animal getting sacrificed. A love that would die for you a man can do no greater thing for his friends app art from one may bee one to lay your life down for a stranger and as God says we do not know him

My fairy tales are no more superstition than that garbage taught in schools they call science or world religions. Im a moron because I believe in a book written by men inspired by GOD you believe in books and theories written by men. PERIOD,So tell me why the books you read aren't susceptible to the greed, dishonesty and lies of humanity as you claim the Bible is and that's why I shouldn't believe it. Some how the argument only works when it involves ideas which make humans uncomfortable. Jesus didn't say what He was going to say would be welcomed with open arms. In fact exaclty what happens to the Bible is what He said would happen. Christians are thought of as mindless ignorant and weak. Yet all the world does is folllow their own brand of religion and then call those christians self righteous and ignorant for the very things those so enlightened people do.

Believe what you choose but DO NOT expe`ct me to follow==

Stephen102806:
WOW what an asinine remark.

Science bases its information on CREDITABLE evidence.

So if you really believe in the bible then care to explain why you are not out smiting people who work on the sabbath? It IS stated in the bible that those who work on the sabbath are to be smited.

Cleary you have demonstrated the asinine idea that your religio is the one true religion.
No wonder many conflicts in the world is a result of Inter and Intra religious conflicts.

If it was up asinine people like you the only thing that would be taught in school is the "god did it theory" as a way to explain everything that goes on in the world.

Thanks for demonstrating that you are incaplable and willing to understand science as well as why you fear science.

Jesus taught that we should love one another, not hate and kill. That includes loving those who are different than myself. He also taught us to be the light and salt of the earth. That includes setting an example, not discriminating against those who may be different than myself. While it can be difficult to "walk the talk" as a Christian, because we all sin, have weaknesses and faults; it is especially difficult to read the offensive remark "a 2000 year old superstitious fairy tale". Clearly, you have not read the Bible, nor do you have any discernable knowledge of, or insight into, Christianity. Do yourself a favor - read the New Testament to understand what Christ actually teaches, then read historical facts. You'll find it's not a fairy tale, and it certainly doesn't promote discrimination. It merely points us to the truth that the path is narrow (eternal life through Jesus), and not wide (all roads lead to heaven). May the Lord give you eyes to see and ears to hear. God bless you!

You're doing more to prove that your belief system is cultish - the "new testament" is full of inconsistencies between the four gospels alone!!! Just based on that, why should anyone think that your "new testament" is anything but a fairy tale. At least with the Jewish Bible, you can see most of the locations mentioned in it.

James, dear, please keep in mind that Matthew 5:23 warns about calling other people names. Telling people they are morons doesn't exactly raise their opinions about you. Speak the Truth in love, brother, and leave the rest to the Holy Spirit.

So, James J, you believe EVERY word in the Bible?

Do you believe that disobedient children should be stoned to death as demanded in Deuteronomy 21:18-21? If so, I hope you don't have children.

That is Old Testament law, and symbolic for obedience. Through Christ, we receive grace and mercy as well as a new establishment of law and understanding of the symbolism of obedience.

Just as the old law said you couldn't eat meat from a hooved animal (ie. pork), the New Testament points out in at least 3 places that it is no longer "unclean" and describes the symbolism...

Point is, there's an Old and New Testament... and we can all rejoice in that!

the problem with your statement, WalkinWithJesus, is that you apply that "Old Testament" law to everything except equal and fair treatment of gays. Now, if you truly believed as you do, you would allow gays to live in peace and as equals to everyone, but you don't do that, do you? I call that hypocrisy.

And NO, there's no "Old and New Testament" - there's the Jewish Bible (the original) and the Christian Bible (which takes a rewritten version of the Jewish Bible which makes Jesus=messiah self-fulfilling prophecy). I would strongly urge you to read one of the Jewish versions of the Bible, either Schottenstein, Masoretic, etc. It would be an eye-opener for you to see that major changes that King James of England made to the original to create the self-fulfilling prophecy.

And yet you would worship a "God" who, at one point in history, demanded that disobedient children be stoned to death in public, and who, later in history, supposedly changed his mind? What kind of God would do that? Certainly not a God who deserves to be worshipped.

Or is is possible that the Bible is just wrong and God never expected disobedient children to be stoned to death? You don't know the person who wrote the book of Deuteronomy. You don't know if he was a man of God or a sociopath.

We are now in the 21st century. Can't we set aside blind religion and start being a bit more spiritual?

Dr. Martin Luther King, Gandhi, and Mother Teresa were not born-agains. so all the born-agains are going to heaven but those three are not there???! i'd rather be in the area those three GREAT and HUMBLE Humans are when i die then to be in the born-agains heaven. and i know a great many people who feel the same way.

the hate, the hypocrisy, the pounding of the chest cuz i'm born-again and you ain't so i'm going to heaven and you aren't crap is truly pathetic. the multi-million dollar mega churches and the Pastors Ted Haggard (president of the 30-million plus member National Association of Evangelicals-BORN-AGAINS-denounced gays and illegal drugs but was later exposed as a gay Crystal Meth user) and Earl Paulk (The 80-year-old leader of a suburban Atlanta megachurch at the center of a sex scandal of biblical dimensions: He slept with his brother's wife and fathered a child by her. This is not the first or even the second sex scandal to engulf Paulk and the independent, charismatic church, the Cathedral of the Holy Spirit at Chapel Hill Harvester Church in Atlanta) are just the tip of the iceberg when it comes to the hypocrisy of the religious right.

what would Jesus do?! wwjd?! you born-agains really believe He would let all you haters in but keep out those three, who had NO MONEY (Jesus was poor) like the evangelical preachers do, who were GREAT and HUMBLE peace-loving people, out of heaven?! oh right, it sez in the Bible that they will not enter heaven cuz they ain't born-again! THINK for YOURSELVES! your god gave you a brain, remember? use it and think! so you still actually ACTUALLY believe all those born-again preachers (ted haggard, paulk, jimmy swaggart, jerry falwell, etc.) will get to heaven but not those three wonderful human beings who changed the world FOR THE GOOD of ALL PEOPLE??! that's why i, and MANY others, prefer going (if i/we do) to where they are than where born-agains SAY they are going. you really believe that God and Jesus discriminate???! only religions do.

republicansexoffenders.com

some "wisdom" for the masses:

Jesus was a Liberal. Don't pray in my school and I won't think in your church.
so many right-wing christians--so few lions.
Jesus, protect me from your followers!
the bible was written by the same people who said the earth was flat.
your god, your rules--YOU go to hell!
and finally,
in case of rapture, this car will be unmanned. it will then recklessly careen into children at a school crossing. killing all of them.

and to end on a funny note:

"Religion is just mind control." - George Carlin, comedian

"If Christ were here now there is one thing he would not be -- a Christian." -Samuel Clemens "Mark Twain"

thanks for reading!

how about those of us who have a personal relationship with G-D? Do we not count?

Let's say that I believe 2+2=4. You say 2+2=5. We disagree. I'm right, and I know that I'm right. You, however, are just as convinced that you have the right answer. I can tolerate that you're wrong. I can allow you to believe that without hating you, calling you names, or demanding that you come to my school and learn things the correct way. Will I try to persuade you that I have the correct answer? If I care about you at all, it will probably come up. Will I love you less because you are wrong? Probably not.

Christianity should be the same thing. I know that Jesus is the ONLY way. Many others don't know this. My job is to tell them the truth, but it's God's job to work the Truth in their hearts.

When asked about what was most important, Jesus replied with these two commands: 1. Love the Lord with all your heart, soul and mind. 2. Treat other people as you would want them to treat you. Unfortunately, there are some Christians who miss the point of these words, but just because some people get them wrong doesn't mean Jesus wasn't telling the truth.

2+2 will always equal 4, even if you don't believe it.

eaemomma
Amen to what you say, you make more sense than any other posting so far from either side of the discussion!

I am not saying your beliefs are wrong. I'm not even saying something as incredibly condescending as "I can tolerate that you're wrong." I'm saying that your beliefs shouldn't be forced on others, no matter how much you think your way is the only way. I have no problem whatsoever with your beliefs or those of any of the posters here, but I do have a problem with them telling me that I am wrong if I don't agree with them, or that I'll go to hell, or calling me names.

I also have a problem with the self-righteousness in almost every "Christian" post here. Jesus was never angry, self-righteous, smug, or heavy-handed with people who didn't believe as He did. He never said "you are wrong and I am right, so shut up", which is essentially what most of the people here are saying. He won people over with patience, compassion and example, not with name-calling and bullying.

Crispy Daisy, are you sure that Jesus never got angry (he turned over the money changing tables in the temple), or called anyone names (he frequently called the Pharisees and Sadducees "brood of vipers," "hypocrites," etc.)? While He wasn't a smug bully, He was no wallflower either. Every time He criticized the religious leaders in His day, He WAS saying, I am right and you are wrong." And I think self-righteousness in Jesus who said he was "one with the Father" and the "way, truth, and life" kind of begs the question, don't you? He was/is the very embodiment of self-righteousness; it's just that according to Christianity, He is the only one who can be, as the only incarnate expression of the only righteous God in man.

I didn't mean to be condescending or smug. I was trying to make a point about "tolerance." I do apologize if it came off that way. It truly wasn't my intention. As for telling you that you're going to hell...well, I don't know if you are or not. I'm not your Creator or your Judge. I'll leave that between you and God. :) And I don't think I've called you or anyone else here names. I think namecalling is childish and the last resort of those who don't have a real point to make.

I think if you look a little deeper at the New Testament, you would actually find that Jesus often tells people who disagree with him that they are wrong. In fact, the Pharasees began plotting to kill him for just those reasons.

I'm sorry that Christians have treated you poorly. I hope that at some point you'll be able to run into one or two followers of Christ who treat you with respect but are unwavering in their faith.

Again, I'm sorry if I have come across poorly. Sometimes it's hard to put my thoughts on the screen and convey the message I hope for.

eaemomma, Christians have not treated me poorly. One of my best friends is a born-again Christian and she has the strongest faith of anyone I know. The difference between her and most of the "Christians" posting on this board is that her faith is expressed in a loving, caring way. Even though I'm sure she prays for people who don't share her faith, she would never presume to tell them that she is praying for them to see the light, or reject them for not believing as she does. She doesn't look down on anyone and doesn't have a self-righteous bone in her body. She lives her faith every minute of every day and those who know her are aware of the depth of her faith, but she would never bludgeon anyone over the head with it. She quietly goes about her life setting a great example for living a Christian life. She is what I consider a Christian; the angry people on these boards are not.

I mistook your feelings for the "angry people on these boards" as your feelings for Christians. Sorry I made that assumption. I don't really see many of these folks as model spokespeople for my religion, either. Your friend sounds like someone I might enjoy conversation with and learn a little from as well.

eaemomma, you're incorrect. Jesus is the only way to bigotry, mass murder, etc. How many people have been killed in his name, how many have been tortured in his name, only because people believed differently?

He is NOT the only way into heaven, and once you realize that, you'll be a better person for it.

I think it depends on what you mean by "founded on". If you mean that the founding fathers were motivated by Christian principles, you may want to pick up a book about any one of them. If you mean that our society is based on Christian morals, that would be only half correct, as many of the morals Christianity applied had been around for much longer than Christianity.

Hey COOK This is NOT A CHRISTIAN NATION.

Asinine jerks like you and Stephen want to turn this country into a theocracy.

Yeah like that will last a long time.

Actually, there have been pictures discovered, along with documentation that the founding fathers of our Nation were Masons, and members of the Knights Templar.

This nation was not founded as a Christian nation. Many of the founders of our country were Deists, Masons, Rosicruceans and Agnostics who all would have fought against any effort to make this a Christian nation, or a nation of any other established religion.

Alexis de Tocqueville lived in the United States shortly after the Revolution and saw the country first hand. Here is what he said:

"They all attributed the peaceful dominion of religion in their country mainly to the separation of church and state. I do not hesitate to affirm that during my stay in America I did not meet a single individual, of the clergy or the laity, who was not of the same opinion on this point"
-Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America, 1835

Ps. 145:18 says "The L-rd comes close to those who call upon Him, to those who call upon Him in truth." There is no reason to go through Jesus when G-D says we can call upon Him directly.

It's not about condemnation, but love. God loves us all so much that he sent His Son to die for us. We all deserve to be separated from Him (Hell), because we're sinners. I believe God gives us all an opportunity to hear the Truth and decide for ourselves. In the case of those who haven't heard it, each will be judged according to what he knows.

Excellent post, Sean. Lkub's reply -- not so much. Apparently, God is only loving if you choose the right religion and if you don't -- off to Hell with you!

A man has been tried and found guilty of the murder and rape of a child. On sentencing day, the man asks the judge to have mercy on him. He was a member of the Boy Scouts, he recylcles, and calls his mother every Thursday without fail. The judge decides that the man's good deeds are enough to let him go, and the judge sets him free. Has justice been served? Is the judge a good judge?

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. When He completed His work, He called it "very good." But man's rebellion against God brought sin into the world. Sin is rebellion against God's holiness. God hates sin, and as a just judge, He cannot overlook it. Sin must be punished.

In what we call the Old Testament, people were justified (saved) in God's sight by their faith in His promise of a Messiah. In what we call the New Testament, people were justified before God by their repentance (a hatred of and turning away from their sin) and faith in the revealed Messiah, Jesus Christ, who is the Son of God and equal with God. Jesus was born of a virgin, lived a perfect, sinless life, and was crucified and risen on the third day to pay for the sins of those God has chosen to receive eternal life. Jesus paid the debt we sinful humans owe God. Those who repent of their sins and put their faith for salvation in Jesus Christ receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, the third person of the Trinity who is equal with God and Jesus.

So back to the judge: The judge who let the murderer/rapist go would be labeled by society as evil, yes? So how then can God let the sinner go without justice being served? Jesus paid the fine for those who repent and trust. What an act of kindness and mercy that none of us deserves! Those who do not have Jesus as their Lord and Savior will pay their own debt for their sins, eternally in Hell. God's holiness demands payment for sin; humans cannot pay that debt, which is why we need a Savior.

In order to understand the justice of Hell, one must have a grasp of God's character. He is holy and perfect, and in His mercy He has made a way for our debt to be paid. His Word says repeatedly that repentance and faith in Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to have our sins forgiven.

I hope I have honored God in the way I explained that. And I hope He opens your heart to this truth.

Thanks!

I agree with that explanation, Jennifer. It's not that God is "sending" billions of people to hell for believing wrong, like not accepting a mental assertion, an idea, a concept. That would be absurd. God is so holy and perfect that any thought of goodness we hold in others or ourselves pales in comparison. Sin calls for death because goodness, perfect, holy goodness, is life. Insofar as goodness is fallen short of, death enters in, making us physically mortal and spiritually damned to separation from that goodness, like keeping a blemish or stain away from a perfectly clean, white garment. Since it's already here, a fact, we have a choice through free will - accept the fate of our destiny, or identify with a God who, in love, decided to identify with us. His holiness kept Him from spiritual death, when He took on our sins, but He tasted the physical mortality. His holiness requires the eternal separation (which is what hell is, prepared not for man, but for the devil and his angels, who knew better than we); His love compelled Him to make the atonement for us through Jesus. Perpetually rejecting Jesus in our free will to do so (the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is the only unforgiveable sin), rejects the God whom Jesus embodies. It is saying through our life choices that want nothing to do with God our Creator (because we refuse to deal with the sin that separates us spiritually) or that we disagree with Him, that we can atone for the sin ourselves, in our imperfection (lack of total holiness) necessary to do so. We can think of God in other religions, do good deeds, pray, but without God's atonement (which He provided when He incarnated Himself as Jesus), we still have a sin problem that ultimately separates us from Him. No one is saying that those practicing other religions aren't, in some respects, "good" people, only that they aren't perfectly holy, as only God is. Neither are Christians perfectly holy, and some are not so good even, but they're allowing God to work in and through them, on them, until they are, by accepting the indwelling of the Holy Spirit from Jesus, Who is the incarnation of God. Either He atones (through faith in Christ and acceptance of His lordship over our lives) or WE atone. Since we have no holinees by which to make atonement that would keep us in God's eternal presence, the best that our goodness can do is cause us, unfortunately, to suffer the eternal separation. This doesn't please God. The only other alternative would have been to revoke free will and force our obeisance to His holiness. That is not the mutually loving relationship He sought in creating mankind, as revealed in scripture. It is important to note that it is REJECTION of Christ as God and Saviour that leaves only one other eternal separation (hell) alternative, and no individual wrong deed done that "sends" one to hell (how manyevils done, or to what severity, really make the point moot once the holiness is fallen short of-God doesn't "grade on a curve"); and, it is acceptance of His atonement and identification with Him (no good deeds of our own done) that affords eternal oneness with God. We do good deeds because it is right and because it pleases God, not to "gain" heaven. If one practicing another religion, never actually rejected Christ per se, but never heard the gospel fully, I don't know what happens to them. I thnk a passage in Romans 1 may provide a clue, but God as judge, knows the hearts and motives. We who have that holiness only on borrow from a holy savior are in no position to judge. That's like condemning a person with great debt because someone came in and paid off our debts; we'd be just as greatly in debt if we hadn't had such a great benefactor, and that benefactor also wants to pay off their debts - no favoritism for us.

Narrow is the gate which leads to salvation and few there be that find it. Wide is the gate that leadeth to destruction and many would enter in.

One bad apple spoils a bunch.

You are entitled to your beliefs. I am entitled to mine. That does not mean that yours cancel mine out. And since you don't really follow G-D's laws as written down in the Jewish Bible, I don't see how you can say that you can go to heaven.

Ron J: The Bible is not the inerrant word of God. There are, in fact, many errors and inconsistencies throughout the Bible. Please read the book "Misquoting Jesus" by Bart D. Ehrman to see many specific examples of known errors contained in the Bible.

For example, in Mark 2 Jesus reminds the Pharisees of how King David and his men went into the Temple and ate the show bread on the Sabbath "when Abiathar was the high priest." Unfortunately, Jesus was wrong. I Samuel 21:1-6 says that this occurred when Ahimelech was high priest. Whoops!

One Gospel says that Jesus was crucified the day after the Passover meal (Mark 14:12; 15:25) while another says that it happened the day before (John 19:14). Paul says that he did not go to Jerusalem after his conversion on the road to Damascus (Galatians 1:16-17) while Acts 9:26 says that was the first thing he did after leaving Damascus. And there are many, many more examples in the book and other books on the same subject.

And of course there are the well-known questions of the two different versions of the Ten Commandments. Which version is correct? There are two versions of the creation story. Which version is correct?

The point here is not to take away anything from the message of Jesus. The point is to show how much damage Christians do to the message of Jesus when they try to claim that the Bible is God's inerrant word. If God had intended to create an inerrant book for us, He would have done a much better job than men did creating the Bible.

G-d bless you as well, but remember this - Ps. 145:18.

I don't need Jesus to get to G-D. I can talk to G-D directly.

And since people like you continue to sin and say "Jesus forgives me my sins," that would make you sound hypocritical. Christian history has enough examples of this, which I've listed in other places here. All this was done in Jesus's name.

No there is not but one. You just refuse to admit it.